Overcoming Prolapse: A Physical Therapist's Journey and Support for Others

In this episode, we meet Dr. Margo Kwiatkowski, a physical therapist specializing in orthopedic and pelvic floor therapy, who shares her personal prolapse story after giving birth during the COVID-19 pandemic. Margo discusses the challenges of diagnosing and managing prolapse symptoms, including her experiences with bladder dysfunction, pelvic pain, and the emotional toll the condition took on her. She also highlights the importance of mental health support, the use of a pessary, and topical estrogen in her recovery. Margo has since founded a support group and created a tailored exercise program for women with prolapse, emphasizing the need for empathetic listening and factual information sharing. The conversation underscores the significance of community and professional support in navigating postpartum pelvic health issues. 

Want more information on Margo and her work, check out her:

Website https://www.p4moms.com/about

Instagram @postpartum_pop_pt

Timeline:

00:28 Introduction and Guest Introduction 

00:55 Margo's Background and Initial Prolapse Diagnosis 

02:41 Challenges and Symptoms Post-Delivery 

05:36 Mental Health and Support Systems 

08:55 Treatment and Recovery Journey 

10:00 Pessary and Estrogen Therapy 

13:32 Prolapse Staging and Long-Term Outlook 

16:13 Understanding Prolapse Dynamics 

16:31 Second Delivery Experience 

16:59 Decision for Elective C-Section 

18:53 Postpartum Recovery and Prolapse Management 

19:39 Living with Prolapse: Symptoms and Surgery 

21:26 Support and Advocacy for Women with Prolapse 

22:19 Creating a Prolapse Support Community 

23:20 Educational Resources and Visual Aids 

29:19 Joining the Prolapse Support Group 

30:10 Final Thoughts and Gratitude

Transcript

Um, hi there. I'm here today with Margo  Kwiatkowski. I'm very proud of myself for saying her last name right. I've been rehearsing. And, um, she's a physical therapist who has her own prolapse story. And, um, I just wanted to talk to Margo about her story and how she is supporting other women who've had the same prolapse issues that she's had.

So welcome. 

Thank you. Thanks for having me. 

So do you want to tell us your story? So you are a physical therapist and you  are an orthopedic as well as public for physical therapy. Yeah. 

So I started practicing, um, in orthopedics and sports. I actually worked in professional baseball for a little bit. But I'd always had an interest in pelvic health from my own kind of chronic pelvic pain history.

And so I thought I'd dip my toes in once I got going with my career and I did started working. And then I had my first son in 2021 middle of COVID time and ended up being diagnosed with prolapse three weeks after he was born. I had some significant bladder dysfunction, um, all things considered. I did all the right things, especially as being a physical therapist.

I think that's a really important part of my story is a lot of women blame themselves.  For seeking the diagnosis of prolapse, right? When we know that there are bigger factors out there like genetics, um, you know, chronic constipation or you know, familial history, hypermobility things, and I ticked some of those boxes of, you know, even if I did all the right things, I was still going to have this diagnosis.

So I, I treat, yeah, go ahead. 

Can I ask you a question about, so before you delivered, you had some, um, pelvic pain. Was that related to sports? Was it. Just kind of something that happened to you.  

Yeah. It's more, um, provoked like vulvodynia type pain. Okay. And it had been treated by a couple of physical therapists, but never quite resolved.

And so my,  my delving into pelvic health was almost to kind of diagnose myself. Okay. Cause I felt like I'd been dismissed by doctors common story for so many people with pelvic pain. Right. Um, so I figured out exactly what it was for myself and now it's much better treated because I actually have a diagnosis.

So yeah. Okay. 

Okay. So you're a new mom. You're someone who has a lot of insight into the pelvic floor and connections and, um, you had prolapse at, at three weeks. So what symptoms did you have initially? I, you know, I think one of the things that's so hard for new moms is. Whatever's happening is your reality, and it's really hard for you to know if it's  normal, common, or you know, something that is, you know, far beyond normal, 

right?

I knew something was wrong almost immediately after I gave birth because I had no bladder sensation or bladder control. So not a retention issue, but I would just.  Shift around in the bed and my bladder would empty completely. So I remember telling the nurses in the hospital, Hey, you know, I'm having some significant incontinence and everyone was like, Oh, that's normal.

That's normal. But I don't think they understood the gravity of what I was trying to tell 

them. Yeah. Cause what you're describing is not normal at all. Right. 

I've learned that this is actually something that a lot of people who are end up being diagnosed with assistive seal have this kind of story right after giving birth.

And so that took quite a while to resolve. And My hypothesis is that my son, my second stage of labor. So pushing was three hours. 

Okay. 

Obi and I hypothesized that there was probably either a traction or compression nerve injury from how long he was in my birth canal, because it really took months for that to come back.

And my bladder sensation wasn't normal for two years.  Which is pretty fascinating. 

That, that is really fascinating. And you're not someone who, um, you know, sometimes after a delivery, if someone has an epidural, um, they get super over distended and their bladder gets really full and that can create a neuropathy.

Nothing like that. 

No, none of that happened to me. And so understanding how nerve healing.  It takes that was, that was kind of our hypothesis. So that was my first sign that something was wrong. And then at three weeks,  when all the swelling goes down after giving birth vaginally,  I remember feeling like I was sitting on a golf ball.

I had that, you know, foreign tampon sensation and in my vaginal canal, a lot of heaviness, and I took a look and I was like, okay, well,  there it is. There's a prolapse there. And I wasn't sure what organ it was. I just went just so into my head, you know, new mom, All of the postpartum hormones, all the things.

And even though I had seen it and treated it so many times, I just panicked, right?  

It's really hard to be the patient, right? It's much easier to be the provider. And I, I think it's really hard for providers to objectively diagnose  themselves. I firmly believe that having a new baby is one of the hardest things in the world when everything is perfect,  right?

And so then when you add in These other things, these other factors, um, it, it, it's, it is just a lot, right? Yeah. 

Yeah. And that period of time was just marked by so much fear because you, when you have that diagnosis, you feel like everything you're doing in your body is, is a threat is dangerous, right? Am I going to worsen what's going on?

Can I even care my child around? Um, I need to bounce this baby to sleep because it's crying hysterically, but am I going to worsen my prolapse? And so just this spiral, my, my mental health was really affected as well. Well, and thankfully I found a really good perinatal therapist and got on some good meds because I don't think I would have been able to  to get past the intrusive thoughts of the spiral of prolapse in life and that without that additional mental health support.

I think that's a really important point. I think when you're in the middle of it. You know, everybody wants to know how this is going to end. Like tell me the end of the story and then I can get through the middle part. And sometimes the middle part is really hard. Yeah.  

Yeah. And I wish I could tell everyone your prolapse is going to resolve your symptoms are going to improve completely.

But the. There's no way that we can look at someone that early in a diagnosis and tell them you're going to be 100 percent success story, or you're going to be someone who's going to have surgery. And I wish we had a way that we could feasibly look at that, but we don't. I mean, we can look at more things like did someone have more muscle tear.

Do they have a, what's their GH measurement? Those are going to tell us more longterm results for these people, but I don't think they're being looked at regularly enough with this, right? And so it's just one of those things like, Oh, this is what you have. Good luck. We'll see you in a couple of years, 10 years, 20 years when you want to have surgery.

Right. 

Yeah. And, and there you're definitely right. I think most people want a better idea of their prognosis and where they're going to fall. Right. Right. Even if it's only. Maybe like quartiles, right? Like you're very likely to improve or very likely to not improve. I mean, I think those are really important things for people to know.

And, and then they need closer follow up, right? You can't say, okay, go live your life and, and come back to me. So I'm going to ask you a question that I would never ask a normal patient, but you're not a normal patient because you are. A patient physical therapist. So you knew after you delivered that your sensation wasn't normal.

Um, could you contract your pelvic floor after you delivered?  

I could, and I did. I made the mistake of doing what I tell my patients not to do, but I did Kegels a lot of like too many of them. Not that they're bad. I just did too many because I would stand up and try to get to the extra muscles, right?

Cause my, my. Sphincter was not functioning. Um, I was trying to use all the other pelvic floor muscles to hold and happy have continents. Um, I ended up with pretty significant tailbone pain because of that and I had to undo all of those things. 

Yeah. And I, I think that too is a really important message, right?

If you are doing Kegels and you may be doing them and not really recognizing it, if you develop pain, you have to stop, right? You have to stop and you have to see somebody. Um, so that's really fascinating that you had muscle function, but Not great sensation, right? Which does kind of point to a nerve injury at that point in time, which are, you know, slow to resolve.

They are, they are. And that's really hard because you think, is this going to be my life forever? Right. And that becomes part of that spiral too. 

Yeah. Um, yeah. So, so then what you had the prolapse, you sought some mental health counseling to help. You were doing exercises on your own. 

Yep. I saw a physical therapist, a pelvic floor therapist, a friend of mine in town.

She was great. She helped me a lot. She was also very encouraging. You know, she's someone who is a veteran in the field and kept telling me it's going to be okay. I've seen this before. You know, this takes a long time and having someone just to Remind me of those things was really important. She's also a mom and 

you know, it's so funny that you say that I, so I recently had a surgery and you know, I, I am a surgeon and I was amazed.

I would have these little pains and stuff and I would go see my surgeon. And every time I had a post op visit. Just their words were so reassuring and comforting, and I would feel so much better and then would be able to deal with whatever was happening  so much better. Right. And so that that therapeutic touch and conversation and counseling is, is so important, right?

You have to have a team that's supporting you. 

Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. And then I also started using topical estrogen to help with my symptoms a lot. And then I got a pessary week 11 and that. Was a really big game changer for me because  the, the fear of moving my body, I think was a big limiting factor early on.

So I would try to exercise or do any sort of movement. And I would feel worse prolapse symptoms, which we know doesn't indicate that things are actually worsening, right? It's just, it's a really hard thing to balance. But what the pessary did was it. alleviated so many of my symptoms that now I wasn't afraid to exercise. 

Did you start the pestering and the estrogen at the same time?  

I started the estrogen a few weeks ahead of that. So like around week seven, I started the estrogen and then I got my pestering week 11. 

And how much better did the estrogen make you feel?  

It got rid of the constant  kind of irritating lingering feeling, right?

So that makes me think the dryness was a huge factor. 

Yeah. 

But it didn't get rid of the end of day, like, oh, heaviness 

feeling. And I think that's really important, right? Because when we talk about low estrogen, we frequently talk about dryness. But I don't, I don't know that the word dryness really describes what that feels like.

I mean, I think the way I usually describe it to patients as I, you know, I think when you're low in estrogen, you, you frequently are just thinking about your vagina all the time. Right. Like it is talking to you and it just doesn't feel right. And then the estrogen makes that go away. Um, and that's a really important to think about in a new mom because lots of new moms are using, um, progesterone based birth control methods, which drop your estrogen, their breastfeeding that drops your estrogen.

Um, and that can make the vagina very unhappy. Right. And so giving vaginal estrogen is, is very safe, um, and can dramatically improve, um,  sensation. So how did you get your pessary?  From a euro guy. Oh, you did. Okay.  And was that hard? Was it hard to find a euro guy?  

It was not. I'm living in a town where there's a handful of them and I have Kaiser as my insurance  demo, 1 euro guy who was there.

He was available. And thankfully, I, I think I got in faster than maybe someone else would have because I had those other bladder issues, right? So because there are other concerning more concerning symptoms, um, they got me in a little sooner than maybe somebody else would have gotten in. 

Did you have to try multiple pessaries? 

He tried a size two ring and a size three, the three I could feel,  he said, no, don't use that one. But the two almost came out and I think I could feel the three because I had too much pelvic floor tension. So it wasn't that it was too large in the canal. It was that I was still like, Oh, like holding, feeling like my organs were going to fall out.

And so I'm protecting and holding against that. So I ended up. Using the three very comfortably and my pelvic floor tension started to really resolve once I got the pessary  

because 

my body wasn't feeling like, oh, God, I have to hold all this up because the pessary was and then I could let go and relax.

So that was huge. 

And then when that tension went away, um, I'm sure your pain got better. 

Yes. Absolutely. The tailbone pain went away. Yep.  

So then what happened? So you're using the estrogen, using the pessary, waiting to get better. Did it all get better?  

I was one of the, I would say definitely the minority where I did have a stage improvement in my prolapse.

I think this is a, cause  a few things I think that played into this for me. One was I was diagnosed with the prolapse really early, like week three, someone looked at me and told me. You have a stage two.  That's really early to be diagnosed and things are going to be low in everyone at that point. 

It's true.

Yeah. Yeah. And so if I maybe had been staged at two or three months. It might have already improved at that point. So I was re regraded or restaged around six months and told that things had improved. So I chalk it up to, I was diagnosed really early and then I, I truly believe that getting a pessary early on was really, really helpful for me to support the ligaments as they healed and all of that.

I also did not have significant muscle trauma, so I don't have an avulsion. Um, I had a stage two peroneal tear, a grade two peroneal tear, but that was suture really well, and so I had that hammock support. In addition to write the connective tissue support and using that past three early. So I think those factors improved, but my, my prolapse is not gone.

Right. So it's, it's very, very rare that you're ever going to see complete resolution. And I, I, I get so upset when people try to spin these stories of like, yeah, I can, my program will resolve your prolapse completely. Or if you do this, it'll go away. But the reality is.  Our bodies are going to change after we give birth, whether it's a C section or a vaginal delivery, things are going to change and that's normal.

That's okay. What's not okay is symptoms and the continuation of symptoms that are interfering with your life, right? Those are the things that your doctor needs to be listening to, that your PT needs to be addressing. And for me, the prolapse was restaged around six months. I was still really symptomatic.

It took almost a year plus for me to be considered what I, what I would call asymptomatic. 

Yeah. 

Um, and that, that was really the strengthening of my body, getting my mental health under, you know, a better, you know, regulated  less fight and flight mode.  And I would say for me, yeah, things really truly did resolve, and I, I felt confident enough to have another baby.

I'm 13 and you 

got to a point where you didn't have to wear a pessary anymore. 

Right. Yep. I would only wear it when I was going to be traveling, lifting a heavy suitcase, um, going for a hike. If I was gonna be picking up my toddler a ton one day, I would put it in. Otherwise, no, I did not have to use that forever.

Um, I, so I, I just want to talk about the point that you just made, cause I think it's really important. The stage of a prolapse, sometimes people get really wedded to the stage of a prolapse. The stage of a prolapse doesn't really matter. What matters the most is your symptoms. Right. And if you have a stage two prolapse and then we're super excited cause it's a stage one, but your, your symptoms are the same. 

Yeah. It doesn't really matter. Right. Right. And it probably means that, you know, I should examine you later in the day after you've been really active and then, you know, your stage might be lower, right. Because prolapse is very dynamic and it depends on, on what you have been doing. Um, did your prolapse get worse after your second delivery? 

So I had a C section with my second, I actually planned to have a vaginal delivery, but mid labor, I had had two and a half weeks of prodromal labor, my body was exhausted, my uterus was not contracting well, and they wanted to go through the cascade of interventions. They had also done an ultrasound and my son was completely sunny side up. 

Yeah, and so I was like.  I just didn't feel safe with what they wanted to do next. And I said, I'm going to have an elective c section at this point. And I'm really glad I did that because I I think it,  I think it was the best choice for me, right? Not that a vaginal delivery wouldn't have been a good one, but I think with where I was at in that, in that point with my mental health and cascade of interventions, I wanted to go down it.

Yeah. So 

I had a C section. Um, And 

that's a situation where I wish we had more data for you, right? Where we could say, Oh, look, here you are, here are your prognostic factors. This is what we, you know, you have a 80 percent chance of. An avulsion after this, um,  it, you know, just to help you make that decision in a more educated or, or supported fashion.

I mean, your decision was clearly very educated, right? You know, all these risk factors. Um, but I, I think that's a really hard thing for the average woman to do and to advocate for. 

Of course. And they don't know the, the, the stats and the, you know, that haven't. Side up baby makes things a little bit more challenging, you know, that 

things just don't fit out that well that way.

Um, yeah, yeah. And, and asking for an elective section. I mean, you have to, um, have a good relationship with your provider, right? And that, that provider has to know you and feel like that's a good choice for you. And, and, you know, different people are, um, more comfortable with that than others,  

right. And it was, you know, it was, it was a big moment for me to advocate for myself because the provider who was there was not my, the Um, and he was very reluctant to give me a C section and I had to tell him, no, I'm, I'm, this is the choice that I'm making.

And my primary OB told me I could change my mind at any time. And I'm, I'm changing my mind right now. And I had to, you know, do that. And thankfully my other birth  people who are with me, my husband and my doula were really supportive. And. Yeah, it was a good choice. But to answer your question, did it get worse? 

It is not as bad as when I first gave birth with my, my first son,  but it is worse than when I got pregnant the second time. 

Okay.  

So that makes sense. So I'm kind of in this in between, which makes a lot of sense. Cause I went through a long pregnancy. I was a lot bigger the second time, but I'm wearing my pessary.

I'm using my estrogen. I'm exercising. I'm way ahead of where I was after my first in regards to my. Confidence with my body, trusting myself, the activities that I'm doing, my mental health, all those things are so much better. So I have confidence that I will be asymptomatic again, whether my prolapse actually reduces in stage, I don't really care that much.

Yeah. Because as 

long as my symptoms are resolved, I feel really good about that. And people always ask me, are you going to have surgery someday? I don't know. Not right now because I'm asymptomatic, right? So I can live my life and do the things I want to do.  Excuse me.  And I'm not limited by my prolapse, but if that changes at any time, sure.

I'll consider surgery. I'm not against that. 

When I talk to patients about surgery, that's what I'm listening for. Right. I'm listening for the, wow, this I'm, I'm not living my life the way I want to be living my life because of this prolapse. And I've tried all of these other things. Right. And you clearly have figured out how to do that.

And even though you have a prolapse, this is all it's working for you. Right. And you are living your best life. How far postpartum are you?  

I am 12 and a half weeks now. So 13 weeks on Monday. 

Oh my gosh. So you, yeah. So I have to ask, how's your baby?  

He's doing great. We've had some ups and downs with some reflux and food allergies and things like that.

And we just, we just all had COVID. So that was fun. 

Oh gosh. I'm so sorry.  That brings me back to the, it's hard when everything's going right. Right. And then There's life because it never all goes right. So, I 

mean, you have, this is just a funny story. I was five weeks postpartum after my c section and my husband had an emergency appendectomy. 

So yeah, that was great. It was a really fun time. 

It is definitely true that, uh, truth is stranger than fiction, right? I mean, you're like, who could write this? Who, who could script this story? 

Yep.  

So you have an amazing story and you know, you have so much knowledge as a physical therapist and then you've experienced all the things. 

What have you helped done to help other women who have the same experience?  

Yeah, I think the primary thing is I just, I have listened to people and heard them, right? Because so many of us feel so dismissed because yeah, prolapse is ridiculously common. You see it all the time, right? So you're going to tell someone this is really common.

But what's different about you is you say, okay, let's talk about your symptoms. So let's get, let's get those resolved. But so many people hear from their doctors or PTs, this is normal. You're fine. Just carry on. Right. And they're not feeling really heard. So  I took that and then I decided, you know, I, there needs to be a workout program designed for new moms who have prolapse. 

To help them feel more comfortable and trust their body again, right? There's so many of these like postpartum exercise programs, but they're not really tailored to someone with prolapse. And that needs to be really carefully done because you need to learn how to manage pressure in your body. You need to load the pelvic floor muscles slowly and in a really considerate way. 

So I designed a program for that. And it's been really helpful for people who don't have access to a physical therapist or in adjunct to a PT.  And then I started a support group. That's a private one. That's different than, you know, there's lots of support groups on Facebook and they're great.  But they're big, they're not necessarily moderated completely.

And there's, there's a lot of fear and  scary, scariness, scary things on support groups like that. And so I created a group that's smaller  that I feel like everyone who joins, we all kind of have this similar alignment in our, in our thinking of how to heal prolapse and how to view it, you know, I read all the posts and I make sure that everything is factual.

So I'm on there, you know, people make claims or state things. I say, well, here's what the research actually says. And.  I've also done some live recordings of educational content on there. Like, how do we, how do we combat this chronic cycle of symptoms? Um, why, why are we so symptomatic when we have tight pelvic floors?

What does, what does that mean for our prolapse? And so there's recordings on there of more educational material for people.  And then I also have a really cool.  Log of 300 plus photos that people have donated of their vaginas and their diagnosis.  And this is really hard to find online.  And that's why it's behind, um, it's behind a paywall actually, because I wanted to make sure that these were going to be very private images for the people who are, to have donated them.

Um, but there's, there's this fear of, is this normal? Is this is what I'm experiencing? And what's fascinating is if you go on there, you're going to look at them and you're going to see. You're going to see when you're going to, that looks completely normal. And the person's telling the story of how symptomatic they are.

And it makes you really realize that point you made that the stage does not dictate the symptoms. Right.  

Well, and, and sometimes, you know, sometimes I'll examine someone's, you know, we always examine people when they're laying down. I mean, sometimes I examine people standing, but I always start laying down and.

Um, you know, you'll examine someone and they look like they have no prolapse, but then they bear down or they stand up and things change dramatically. Um, and then there are so many other factors, right? The pelvic floor tightness, the, um, estrogen status, all of those things can definitely impact people.

Okay. So I have to go back to your pictures because, um, do people donate? Multiple pictures. Like this is me at two weeks. This is me at three months.  

Sometimes they do, or they'll send in pictures with and without a pessary. It's really fascinating. Yeah. It's really cool. 

Or during, I think that's  amazing and, and so awesome.

And I love that so much because I've seen so many patients over the years who, who want that. Right. And they're trusting me to say, yeah, I see this all the time. And this is normal, but, but, but they, they, you know, they, they want to see, you know, what happened to somebody else and to know that it gets better so that that's really amazing.

Yeah, it's pretty cool. And the other one that's really neat to see is someone who, you know, had a baby had prolapse and then gets pregnant. And sometimes in pregnancy, things lift up  showing that like, Hey, this is why I'm asymptomatic in my pregnancy. And for me, I was pretty asymptomatic in my pregnancy because everything was up higher.

Yeah. It's cool to see it visually. 

I mean, that's definitely true, right? Where the, the uterus gets a little bit lifted out of the pelvis. So, and yeah, I, I think that, um, you know, one, it de stigmatizes a lot of this, right. And just,  Shows people what things look like and how it can change over time. Um, but it also offers a lot of hope,  which I think is just such an amazing thing.

And, you know, a lot of times when I see young women with prolapse, they either know no one with prolapse or they only know older women with prolapse. And I think what a lot of people want is they want to see someone like themselves, right, a young, active, healthy person who's dealing with the same issues, right?

So they, they know it's not just them. Um, yeah, that's amazing. And, and your, um, group is geared towards women that have prolapse, right? It's not geared towards providers.  

There have been some providers who have joined. I'll see their names, like, you know, cause I see everyone who joins. So I've had some physical therapists join.

I've had some other, um, providers join. Pastry manufacturers have joined just, you know, it's interesting. Like, um, yeah, someone from your rest, uh, someone from biotech. Um, and I think they're, they're just kind of curious to see. And then the PTs, I think they want to see the, the images. Cause that's also really helpful for a new physical therapist also. 

Oh, absolutely. 

Well, okay. I'm seeing these, you know, there's obviously something there, but I don't know what, what it is. And so for a physical therapist, able to go through and see all of the different presentations of how,  how things can look, it's really helpful to 

what, what made you do that? Like what gave you that idea?

Or is that something that you wanted?  

I think because  I was noticing on the Facebook groups that people would be commenting and say, or they, you know, they, they put a post and say, Oh, this is great. Can I send a picture of my vagina to someone and you tell me what you're seeing? Because I don't, I don't know what I'm looking at and that's just so strange to be like, can I send you  social media?

Right. And Facebook is not secure. It's not secure. Yeah. And that was like, worrisome to me. I'm like, people are just sending these photos to each other, right? 

Right. I mean, it's, it's really a sign of needing more support, right? And a place where, you know, the medical community is not, um, serving women. 

Yes.

Yes. And so I said, I'm going to create this. And I got a few very brave souls to donate theirs original, like, you know, to get it started. And what it's become now is really interesting is people will send photos in and then the if they are unsure of what's going on with their body, the other members.

will comment on that photo and say, here's what I'm seeing. This looks like mine. And that is so reassuring for them to, to know that they're not alone. Someone else looks just like bears or, Hey, this is how I looked at 11 weeks. And now I'm a year postpartum and things have really improved. Um, and so for those who either, you know,  Their doctor was dismissive or they're really not sure why symptoms change throughout their cycle.

And they're sending in these various pictures for someone to give them feedback. I mean, I stay off of that. I don't give feedback. They're not my patients. So I'm, I'm just posting anonymously on their behalf. All these are anonymous photos. Yeah.  

Um, I, you know, I have this theory that most women aren't comfortable with their anatomy, right?

Cause it's, our anatomy is so different than like male anatomy, right? When you're a boy, you can check each other out when you're changing in the locker room or whatever. But most. Women do not have a good idea of how their anatomy compares to someone else's anatomy. And I think a lot of people have questions,  right?

Like,  are my labia bigger than everybody else's? You know, do I have a prolapse? What's going on here? Right. And so just normalizing all of that, uh, I think is amazing, especially in such a very positive way. So if someone has prolapse, um, how can they join their group? How can they find you? 

Yeah. So you can follow me on social media to begin with.

That's probably the best place to start. I am postpartum underscore pop underscore PT.  And my website is P the number four moms. com. And on there, there's a little link you can click join our community. And that's how you can join us through there. And there are  different groups that you can join. There's ones for avulsions, different types of prolapse.

If you have questions about intimacy with your partner, you could ask those. Questions there as well. And it's just a really, really supportive group of other moms. And that's really the best part is that, um, if you're feeling alone and you just need, need a listening ear or need someone need, need a, need a prolapse friend, we're there for you.

I, um, you know, some days I have, uh, mixed feelings about social media, but I, I think this is an amazing. Right. And I, I think a lot of women do need a prolapse friend, and I'm glad that you are willing to be the prolapse friend.  

Of course. I mean, I found my two really good friends when I was a few weeks postpartum  on a support group on Facebook and we still talk every single day and we have, we were prolapse buddies.

Yeah. I think that's what happens when you have kids, right? There's always something that brings you to other women and, and you, you find the support that you need as you kind of, you know, march through this crazy journey. 

Yep, exactly. Exactly. 

Well, I want to thank you so much for your time and everything that you're doing.

Um, and Yeah, I think it's amazing. 

Thank you. Thank you for having me.